Trouble starting with Alpha N

[omega0684]

guys im having trouble getting the car to start by using Alpha N in MS. here are the tables im using,



the car isn't even trying to fire up its just cranking over, have reduced the cranking rpm to 200 from 300 to see if that would help but nothing. im reading through the manual now but cant seem to find anything in there?

help......

[grippo]

Are you getting spark ? If you aren't getting spark the problem likely has nothing to do with alpha N. If you are, then is this the first time you started the car with MS ? If you have previously run the car wih speed density, then look at the fuel pulsewidths you had then and what you have with alpha N during starting. That will tell you whether to richen or lean. Your table advance looks ok for starting.

[valenciano]

as was done to put tps instead of the map, this is what I do not know how I MS2-v3 code and 2.88

[Matt Cramer]

There is a table called "Alpha-N MAP Table" under Other Tables that creates a virtual MAP reading as a function of TPS and RPM.

[valenciano]

Matt ok and try to set the table 6x6, but if I want to make alpha-n pure in every revolution I think it would be better as above, without tps rpm and 6x6 box or map.
anyway I do not understand very well the 6x6, the table is filled with values of map would be real or false values (I mean those that should be seen in the engine and are not either for or throttle cam great).
I have installed large cams and I am going to install large accelerators independent, so it surely will have to use alpha-n pure.

[grippo]

When you select alphaN it is pure alphaN, but you still need the 6x6 table. If you want you can make the map values the same as the tps values, both basically go from 0 to 100, one in % the other in kPa.

[valenciano]

I do not understand very well, you get an example

tps%
100 100 100 100 100 100 100 Grippo usred want to say this, but then the relenti as serious or 0 kPa, because surely a nonsense and not laugh much
80 80 80 80 80 80 80
60 60 60 60 60 60 60
40 40 40 40 40 40 40
20 20 20 20 20 20 20
0 0 0 0 0 0 0
rpm 800 1500 3000 4000 6000 8000


tps%
100 100 100 100 100 100 100
80 95 94 92 90 88 85
60 80 78 75 70 65 60
40 60 58 55 50 45 40
20 45 42 38 34 30 25
0 30 28 25 22 19 16
rpm 800 1500 3000 4000 6000 8000
Matt, and what made this table with values that I think would be in a normal engine, but in mine it do not look for cams and accelerator.
I guess refers to this as it put the real values of my engine does not serve anything.
believe these values m.a.p. and t.p.s are reasonable?


anyway I think it would be easier as pictures from top and tps rpm.
These pictures are in other tables, but there are also other tuning with the same name (alpha-n map table), and has an autotune Also, I have to read something more on this, that serves this tuning?, is like that of ve and spark.

[grippo]

What I am saying is that if you use the first table, then you can do all your tuning in the 12x12 table and you don't have to be concerned with the 6x6 table, just fill in the 6x6 table as you have in your first table. Then start tuning your second (12x12) table.

But if you have a way to measure throttle air flow at different tps and rpm and convert the airflow into a MAP value, then you could use that data to fill in the 6x6 table, and then the 12 x 12 table becomes a map vs rpm table, but the map is generated by the 6x6 table. The reason this was done this way is that if people already had a map vs rpm 12x12 VE table gotten in speed density mode, then they could use this table as a starting table in alphaN mode by getting the 6x6 table from driving around at different tps and rpm conditions and record the map value. Then fill in the 6x6 table and then start adjusting the 12x12 table as needed.

[valenciano]

Grippo ok, then I put the same values in tps% and PSI, but at idling tps% = 0 but can not be 0 kPa at idle.
the rest would seek the ecu in Table 6 * 6 = tps the value of PSI, I have this doubt: that happen with the idling tps = 0 kPa = 0
in the table v.e. would have no tps (adc) as a table top, it would still kPa and rpm, only that kPa would be those of Table 6 * 6.

[grippo]

All you care about is the VE value - that is what controls the fuel injection pulsewidth. So for a fixed rpm you can put 0 tps, 0 kPa in the 6x6 table and 0 kPa will go into the 12x12, or you can put 0 tps and 30 kPa in the 6x6 table and 30 kPa will go into the 12x12 table. But either way, 0 tps will bring the computer to the bottom row of the 12x12 table and you will get the same VE value.

[valenciano]

My problem is I do not understand what is the equation of pw for alpha-n?

pw to the normal equation is:

pw=req-fuel*ve (map-rpm)*map*e+open time

an example with these values:
req-fuel=9.0
ve(map-rpm)=25
map=40
open time=1
pw=9*0.25*0.4+1=1.9ms

MS1 and read it in the formula for pw are two depending on the code:
v.2.xx pw=req-fuel*ve(tps-rpm)+time open in this equation is not used map, the table ve is only 12 * 12 that depends on whether tps and rpm.
con los mismos valores
pw=9*0.25+1=3.25ms with this equation the table would go much lower

v.3 pw=req-fuel*tps*ve(tps-rpm) in this equation if used tps and is believed to be used with MS2, so it is believed that tps looking at Table 6 * 6, and if in the equation tps = 0 and at the table map 6 * 6 = 0, pw = o.
with the same values but at idling tps = 0, Table 6 * 6, the map = 0
pw=9*0*0.25+1=0ms

Grippo and he understood but what is the formula for pw with alpha-n?

[grippo]

The formula for speed density is

pw = (map / 100) x ve (rpm, map)x {other factors like req_fuel and corrections} + topen,
where map is from the map sensor

For alphaN it is the same, except:

1. map = amap_6x6table(rpm, tps) instead of from the map sensor

2. this map is used to get the ve value in the pw eq above

3. this map is also used in the (map/100) term, but you can choose in the MT menu to omit this term for alphaN,
if you want.

[valenciano]

ok Grippo,e been doing calculations for Equation diferntes pw using ye come to the conclusion that sees varies greatly depending on the equation that is used for pw:

1-table6*6

tps
100 100 100 100 100 100 100
80 80 80 80 80 80 80
60 60 60 60 60 60 60
40 40 40 40 40 40 40
20 20 20 20 20 20 20
0 0 0 0 0 0 0
800 1000 1500 2000 4000 6000 8000 rpm


2-table 6*6

tps
100 100 100 100 100 100 100
80 80 80 80 80 80 80
60 60 60 60 60 60 60
40 40 40 40 40 40 40
20 30 30 30 30 30 30
0 25 25 25 25 25 25
800 1000 1500 2000 4000 6000 8000 rpm

in these two tables 6 * 6 different map and put 0% of tps, for the calculations using two tables of 12 * 12, in line to lowest 25kpa would have a map and another 0kpa:

table 12*12, 0kpa with in the last line
map
0 40 45 47 50 55 60 60 62 62 63 65 65
800 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 5000 6000 7000 8000 rpm

table 12*12, 25kpa with in the last line
map
25 40 45 47 50 55 60 60 62 62 63 65 65
800 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 5000 6000 7000 8000 rpm

Use the same values to go to see the differences, just change the final value of the bin map on the table.
the values of the lame map of Table 6 * 6 depending on the position of tps, and use to search the table 12 * 12 the value of the bin map and ve that bin.

started the calculations with values of engine fixed, but change the equation of pw, uses map/100 with and without map/100:
-pw=req-fuel*map/100*ve/100+time open
-pw=req-fuel*ve/100+time open

values of the engine:
req-fuel=9ms
tps=o%
rpm=1000
time open=1ms

pw for calculation with 1-table 6 * 6 with map/100
pw=9*0/100*45/100+1=1ms

pw for calculation with 1-table 6 * 6 without map/100
pw=9*45/100+1=5.05ms

pw calculation for the 2-table 6 * 6 with map/100
pw=9*25/100*45/100+1=2.01ms

pw calculation for the 2-table 6 * 6 without map/100
pw=9*45/100+1=1.45ms

The conclusion I draw is that depending on the Table 6 * 6, which is made and the equation for pw, you need to compute that pulse widths of the vehicle is started and then set the whole table is full, after that adjust after-start , pulses cranking, acceleration etc ..,Also check the table 12 * 12 spark, that the values are reasonable for the map-bin which caught 6 * 6.

you say that can be removed from the equation of the map/100 pw, if done well and the equations above us like daria turn it off, just bear in mind as the pw varies according to whether used or not.
anyway as desctiva map/100?


Finally I would like to review the configuration of alpha-n and as the exchange rate adjustment dependidendo of what is active:

configuration:
-speed-densiti
-blend sd-an
-pure alpha-n

CHARACTERISTICS injector
-control algoritmo
-speed densiti
-blend alpha-n
-pure alpha-n

alpha-n blending
like to set this?

better as a whole is set to make pure alpha blending and alpha-n-n-speed density?



thanks for esplicar Grippo, I think we understand it, except for the configuration, corrigame if this evil.

[grippo]

Let me explain a bit more about the speed density/ alphaN options:

The blend alphaN option uses the 6x6 table to get an equivalent map kPa value and this is multiplied into the pw eq as I showed above. Also, this says "blend", but you can make it all alphaN by setting the low rpm to 20000 so you will never use the real map sensor because you will never get near this rpm.

The pure alphaN is really the same as above in the sense that both can be blended or not, according to how you set the low rpm. But the pure alphaN option omits the kPa term from the 6x6 table in the pw eq. So by choosing to not blend and selecting this Pure option, you only control the fuel with the VE(kPa, rpm) table and you can make this a VE(tps, rpm) table by setting the map values = to the tps values everywherer in the 6x6 table.

I realize this is a bit confusing, but that is what happens when you try to make options for everyone that wants one.

[valenciano]

Grippo okay, I'm thinking of alpha-n pure, but you may need a mixture, always nice to have options for configuration, and I started with MS2 and v3, and I lost MS1, so that there are things that cost me a bit Thank you for your patience.
then if you choose to mix and an sd, the equation of pw = req-fuel *map/100 * ve/100.
if you choose pure alpha-n the equation would pw = req-fuel * ve/100.
in alpha-n blend as it is to choose where they would use alpha-n pure:
pure alpha-n to blen theshold (rpm) = 20000rpm, and would be used alpha-n always pure.
What I recommend enpezar to adjust the car,an or sd?.
is the first time that an efficient and adjust engine is a highly modified, I have some TBI to mount later, and started with sd but this costing me a lot to get to idling, but I think it is because rookie