Building a Turbo 1600 VW Bug - Need Junkyard Advice...

[oldcarguy85]

Hi there,
Here's my story: I'm building a 65 bug. I'm going to use megasquirt to run the motor without ignition control (to start). This is a low buck build-up on a dual port 1600cc. I plan to do a full motor build-up (stroker, big bore) at some point to handle lots of boost, but to start i want to build a simple junkayrd setup. Here are my questions:

-What oil-cooled turbo's are easy to find at junkyards that will produce mild bost at low rpm's? I'm thinking saab 900 or 900's, as i always see a ton of them at the junkyard.

-What injectors are good to grab from a junkyard. Im thinking maybe teh saab injectors would work nicely?

-I've always wondered about this... are weld in injector bungs normally fairly universal? DO most injectors use the same hole size and what not?

-FP regulator - i figured id grab one off a donor vehicle at teh junkyard. Any good ideas? Honda? maybe the same saab??

-Fuel Pump - i haven't decided on in tank or in-line yet, but im thinking in-tank may actually be the way to go. they are readily available at the JY and i'll have to hack teh gas tank to put a pickup in anyway. -- speaking of that, what is the best way to either put a new pickup in/ drop an intank pump in my fuel tank? I dont plan on doing anhy welding on this tank, as it's not new. Im thinking cutting a hoe in th etop of the tank and dropping a pickup might be the best way. the current line runs off teh bottom of the tank. I could plug this hole and run everything from the top. (current fuel line is TINY) THoughts? i guess my main question is, what thype of pump would u reccomend (in tank or in-line) and what would be a good donor car at the junkyard.

--throttle body - ideas? I figure almost anything will probably work. is there one in particular that's readily available at teh junkyard thats easy to use with a MS?

- i dont think sensors will be too big of a deal - i figured id just grab them at teh parts store for a few bucks.

i guess thats it for now... ooo anyone thats into vw's, do you by chance know where to get some header flanges for building custom pipes? i'll obviously need to build some sort of header to go to the turbo.

sorry for the load of questions. any help is greatly appreciated. -- also, if you're interested, here are a ton of pics of the car http://jordancary.com - i'll be updating this regularly (its a little behind right now)

[oldcarguy85]

ok i may have sort of answered some of my own questions. I was reading through some of the MS documentation. they make mention of an external FP used by ford in the lat 80's. Looks like this might work for me, and shouldn't be hard to find at the all truck junkyard around here. Thoughts?

Also, i was thinking of possibly post-91 honda fuel injectors. I know all honda fuel injectors were 240cc for a long time, and that should be plenty fo rthe power i wil initially make. I was also thinking i could grab one of their fuel rails, and split it in two and possibly make them work on my setup. Maybe use the FP regulator too.

[LeslieTroyer]

you might try posting at shoptalkforums --- the fuel injection area has a lot of info on MS'ing VW's

[Matt Cramer]

I'd expect a Saab or Chrysler K car turbo to work fairly well for this application.

I've always wondered about this... are weld in injector bungs normally fairly universal? DO most injectors use the same hole size and what not?

Many German and American cars use Bosch EV1 injectors which are more or less a standard size. Hondas use a smaller injector size that won't fit many aftermarket injector bungs. A Honda would probably make a good throttle body donor however; they're about the same engine size.

A lot of fuel pressure regulators are kind of fuel rail specific. It seems some German cars used hose barb fuel pressure regulators, as did early '80s Datsuns. However, I would be wary of a junkyard fuel pressure regulator - the rubber in them can dry out and start leaking.

[phj420]

If you are trying to do a low buck build-up you should use a carburetor..... SERIOUSLY. If you don’t want to go for it, then I have some Ideas.

If you are thinking about running any boost at a minimum you should use a counterweighted crank with 8 dowels. If not you will blow the engine up before you get anywhere.


Proper turbo sizing is extremely important, especially on an air cooled engine that already runs hot. Detonation is the enemy, so you want to get your compressor efficiency up there as much as possible.
I ran some calcs, and a 1600cc engine at sea level on a 70 degree day @ 5500 RPM without an intercooler would flow about 136cfm (9.4lb/min) your pressure ratio would be 1.56. If you plot these two points on any trim t3 compressor map you will find that the point lies too close to the surge limit and not anywhere near the peak efficiency island. T3s are smaller than T4s and many other turbos, so you will really need to dig to find the right one for the job, you may not find what you need.

You could do some things to make a t3 work:

1) Increase the boost pressure (not recommended unless you really strengthen that engine)

2) Run an intercooler, but even a 70 percent efficient intercooler will only yield an extra 20CFM (about 1 lb/min)

3) Run a larger engine, but then you would be getting away from that junkyard model you are after.

I have seen some Subaru IHI turbo maps that may work. If you are looking at IHI Turbos, they are in CMM so you are looking at 3.85CMM not intercooled.
A good link for IHI turbo info and cars to find them in is here: http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-faq-forced ... -maps.html you will need to make sure that there is no side play whatsoever, and the shaft should spin freely.

If you want to tune where boost comes in, you will need to get a turbo that you can change out the turbine housings if need be. For this reason, I recommend that you get in touch with performance techniques and talk with James. http://turbocharged.com/main.htm Tell him what you are doing and he will hook you up. He can mix and match parts to get you going. The turbo spins at around 125,000 rpm or more. For this reason, buying from these guys may be worth it; they are professionals and will balance the whole assembly after they build it. Buying from them will save you headaches down the road.

I agree with Matt to go with EV-1 injectors. They are universal and will fit into a type 3 end casting with little modification (See the link to my car for info.)

Here are the dimensions of the Ford EV-1 Injector:




As for the Regulator and pump, I would get the regulator from Summit, or some other aftermarket company. One can be had for around $80. You will need to be able to adjust your fuel pressure... I wouldn’t mess around with an in tank fuel pump. I would get an in line one. It is a convenience thing. You will need to run a return line to the tank. You will also need to run 2 filters, one before the pump and a fine filter after. I have had many problems with junkyard and cheap parts failing on me and my time being wasted so I don’t know what car to get these from, I would buy new with a warrantee. You will need to make sure that your pump, filters and line can handle 40+ psi.

As for the throttle body, ESCORT... (See the link to my car for info.)

You can get your sensors used at the junkyard; you will have to calibrate them with Megasquirt anyway. They will cost you more than you think if you buy them new.

Sorry for the long winded answer, I am really passionate about this stuff, and I hate to see another vw get built the wrong way.

-Anthony

[oldcarguy85]

Thanks for the responses!

ANthony, i have no intention of building it the wrong way. I want to get the thing on the road, and get the initial setup done on the motor. within the next 6 months i will build a REAL motor for it, and upgrade components as needed. Let's face it, even if i blow the motor up, they are VERY cheap to rebuild/replace, so i'm not too concerned. it's not a daily driver or anything.

Thanks for the technical help. As far as the EV1 injectors go, did they vary in size from vehicle to vehicle? i imagine they did. Any reccomendations on a specific car that might have a good size? Maybe 250-300cc or so??

[phj420]

IF you are going to go through the work anyway, why not just build up your turbo motor and run a stock engine with a carburetor in the meantime? Your components will not be the same for a 1600 and a 2332. If you build an exhaust header, it will not fit a wider engine, your injector sizing may be different, your turbo sizing will be different, and you will run into other compatibility problems.

I would recommend that you fuel inject the engine before you turbocharge it, especially if you haven't done it before. This way you can get a good idea of your VE curve, and learn how to tune before you have the potential for major detonation. So maybe you wait to turbocharge until your other engine is complete. This would give you a semi-reliable engine to get the car moving while you build your turbo-ready motor.

If you are going to turbocharge it you at least need to use a counter weighted crank with 8 dowels.

I would disagree with the idea VW engines are very cheap and easy to replace, I know for a fact that to build them right costs a ton. Most aftermarket parts are crap these days and you need to modify them once you get them or they will fail.

EV-1 injectors should be universal. If a car is using them then it should have its fuel system sized for the injector above. Eric Falgren has a great calculator that can help you estimate fuel consumption and turbo sizing. here it is: http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml If you run a stock engine with 4lbs you would probably realistically be looking at 100 HP or less, so size your injectors for that. I know that the Rayjay kit boosted HP to a startling 75 hp at 5500 rpm. You should read the section on turbocharging in the mega manual. it is here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mturbo.htm


I wouldn't rev the stock crank past 5000 rpm. Bill Fisher wrote a good book that you should read, and although out of date, it is probably the best book on the subject right now.. How to Hot Road Volkswagen Engines is the title.

[devastator]

If you are going to turbocharge at a later date, I suggest you get MS running before hand. Learning to tune MS has a learning curve, and turbocharging has a learning curve. They usually clash.
You might want to start with smaller injectors, and then upgrade to larger when you go turbo. You need to decide on your boost level before you buy a turbo and/or injectors. Do your calculations carefully and you should be able to figure injector size pretty simply. I recommend using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, (RRFPR), since you can set it on a stock engine and then hook it to a boost line when you add the turbo. I wouldn't suggest using a regulator from a junkyard.
VW engines can be cheap to build, but when you go turbo, the money you will spend replacing them could have build a quality engine from the get go. My case is an AS-21 case and most of the rest of the components are Scat. My build was affordable for the amount of power I am making. I also did it all myself which saved mucho bucks. My induction system uses a Dodge Neon TB, a homemade intake manifold connected to CB performance intake runners.
There are ways around a return line to the tank that you might consider, since the 1/4 in. outlet line from your tank may not flow enough fuel to run on a turbocharged engine. Again, this is boost, (and HP), dependant.
Here's my suggestion: If you want to go turbo, spend the extra money to build a quality engine, EFI set-up, and all that goes with it. You can wire the wastegate open to eliminate boost until you get MS working well enough to start adding boost.
If you want to learn EFI first, then build the turbo engine at a later date; slap in one of those "affordable" engines and install MS. Get it running and become familiar with how it all works, while you build your killer turbo engine in the shop. When you are ready, swap 'em out and tune again.

[oldcarguy85]

Thanks for the replies....

well i couldn't resist the temptation and went to the junkyard and picked some things up.

i got a turbo from a late 90's saab 9000 - i believe its a t25 garret but could possibly be a t3. I forgot to check

injectors i got from a 5.0 ford truck. i believe thesee should be 19lb/hr

throttle body is from a dodge avenger. Has a nice square bolt pattern and simple hole which could be cut with a hole saw

couldn't find fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator, so i'll probably just end up buying those.

I want to use a saab 900 side mount intercooler, but unfortunately there were not at any u-pull its this weekend. I'll keep looking.

Also, i got some pressure piping off the saab, which already has the bypass/blowoff valve and IAT sensor mounted. The IAT sensor is an open air type. do u think this will work?

thanks for all the help. I'll probably end up startign with just FI on the stock motor, and progress into the turbo setup/better engine. I really need to start researching these engines. I could build a SBC in my sleep, but im still very new to the VW scene.

[devastator]

well i couldn't resist the temptation and went to the junkyard and picked some things up.

You might want to resist temptation a little more, as you may have just picked up some parts for your junkyard of your own.

i believe its a t25 garret but could possibly be a t3. I forgot to check

Check...please. Pull through or blow through?

injectors i got from a 5.0 ford truck. i believe thesee should be 19lb/hr

Sounds kinda low for a 5.0L to me.

throttle body is from a dodge avenger.

Engine size or TB size?

couldn't find fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator, so i'll probably just end up buying those.

Good idea.

The IAT sensor is an open air type. do u think this will work?

Mine is open element, even though the manual recommends against it.

I really need to start researching these engines. I could build a SBC in my sleep, but im still very new to the VW scene.

Oh dear.

[Matt Cramer]

injectors i got from a 5.0 ford truck. i believe thesee should be 19lb/hr

Sounds kinda low for a 5.0L to me.

They've got pretty small injectors; the Mustangs had 19 lb/hr injectors except Cobras, and trucks may sometimes have been even smaller. The only 5.0s with really big injectors were the CFI models, which had only two injectors that are somewhere in the 42 lb/hr range.

[devastator]

I stand corrected. I figured since I am using 47lb injectors for my Turbo ACVW, that the bigger engines would use something similar. Thanks Matt.

[phj420]

OLDCARGUY. If you just slap something together you will be chasing your tail.