Hi all,
Today I finished fitting the EDIS ignition set-up on my M117 5.0L V8 Mercedes engine. I cranked it with PIP/SAW unplugged to see if default advance was well set on 10°. After I pushed whatever adjustment I have on the VR bracket I'm still showing only 4° advance, so I'm off by 6°. I would need to make a new bracket to be spot on 10°. Is 6° something the trigger offset wizzard can take care of? I read somewhere there is only so much it can correct, but I can't find the info anymore. Is 6° within the range of possible correction for a V8?
Thanks in advance!
EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
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Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. Many users will not reply if the answer is already available in the manual.
If your question is about troubleshooting, configuration, or tuning, you MUST include your processor type (MS-I or MS-II) and code version in your post. If your question is about PCB assembly or modifications, you must also include the main board version number (1.01, 2.2 or 3.0). For tuning/troubleshooting questions, please attached a datalog and your MSQ file to your post.
If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra code configuration or tuning, please post them at www.msextra.com Such questions posted here will be moved to: a temporary MSextra sub-forum, where they will be removed after 7 days
The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
Yo.
Have some good news for you.
The 10 BTDC limp home mode is requiring a certain idle speed, which is higher than your cranking speed.
I have benchtested EDIS 4, 6 and 8 as standalone and when starting fron VERY low rpms ( 10) the ignition point
is 0 BTDC and at around 450 it has reached 10 BTDC where it stays rock steady up to 6800.
It is most likely a feature to assist easy starts at low cranking speeds.
So set the sensor exactly as it should be and I am pretty sure that when the engine starts to idle , no SAW connected,
you will get a steady 10BTDC.
Heribert
Have some good news for you.
The 10 BTDC limp home mode is requiring a certain idle speed, which is higher than your cranking speed.
I have benchtested EDIS 4, 6 and 8 as standalone and when starting fron VERY low rpms ( 10) the ignition point
is 0 BTDC and at around 450 it has reached 10 BTDC where it stays rock steady up to 6800.
It is most likely a feature to assist easy starts at low cranking speeds.
So set the sensor exactly as it should be and I am pretty sure that when the engine starts to idle , no SAW connected,
you will get a steady 10BTDC.
Heribert
If it is not understood , it will not work!
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
Indeed those are good news! I had taken great care of positioning the VR sensor when I made the bracket so I could not understand why I was off by so much. Though I hope the relation you mention is not a linear one because my cranking speed being a good 300 rpm (healthy battery) I should be around 7° instad of 4° advance. No need to panic at this point, I think the next step is to have the engine started (still some way to go).
BTW, I know you are familiar with these M117 engines. Would you know where I can find the stock ignition curves characteristics so that I can dial them in the system? This is a M117.960, out of a '78 450 SLC 5.0. It's a very early engine n°40, I guess the specs may not be too far away from the 4.5 ones. The only specs I have access to are for the 3.5 but I would imagine they would be too agressive for the 5.0.
Thanks!
BTW, I know you are familiar with these M117 engines. Would you know where I can find the stock ignition curves characteristics so that I can dial them in the system? This is a M117.960, out of a '78 450 SLC 5.0. It's a very early engine n°40, I guess the specs may not be too far away from the 4.5 ones. The only specs I have access to are for the 3.5 but I would imagine they would be too agressive for the 5.0.
Thanks!
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
Hi
QBTW, I know you are familiar with these M117 engines.UQ. It has been a very long time since I worked on a 450 SLC 5.0. I seem to rememer that advance at 3500 rpm without vacuum is 32 BTDC with another about 8 degrees with vacuum. Idling is 12 BTDC, but my figures are not at all certain! It is a marvelous engine. Take care and do not overadvance it!! And the 4,5 and 5,0 are very much different engines!
If you PM me I can give you a contact name at the MB Classic Centre in Stuttgart, they will give you the advance curve . Or if you are close to a friendly MB workshop, get to take a look in the workshop manual section 00, 01 ( Allgemeine data, technische data ) The advance curves will be shown there.
Take good car of the engine, I suppose you know that MB won the Bandama Rally in The Ivory Coast with engine like these.!
Best regards
QBTW, I know you are familiar with these M117 engines.UQ. It has been a very long time since I worked on a 450 SLC 5.0. I seem to rememer that advance at 3500 rpm without vacuum is 32 BTDC with another about 8 degrees with vacuum. Idling is 12 BTDC, but my figures are not at all certain! It is a marvelous engine. Take care and do not overadvance it!! And the 4,5 and 5,0 are very much different engines!
If you PM me I can give you a contact name at the MB Classic Centre in Stuttgart, they will give you the advance curve . Or if you are close to a friendly MB workshop, get to take a look in the workshop manual section 00, 01 ( Allgemeine data, technische data ) The advance curves will be shown there.
Take good car of the engine, I suppose you know that MB won the Bandama Rally in The Ivory Coast with engine like these.!
Best regards
If it is not understood , it will not work!
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
I know! Unfortunately the car (No 52) was rusted beyond repair: my leg went through the footwell panel when I stretched to relax while driving on the highway! When I took it apart I also realised all the chassis rails were half gone. I got the engine, modified and reinforced a G76/27 5 speed transmission that I mated to the engine with a 3.5 flywheel, clutch and bellhousing and the whole thing will go in a '62 W111 Coupe.Take good car of the engine, I suppose you know that MB won the Bandama Rally in The Ivory Coast with engine like these.!
I got some info about the ignition values on these engines:
Without vacuum:
cranking speed: 10 deg BTDC
1500 rpm: 14-22 deg BTDC
3000 rpm: 30 deg
With vacuum:
idling speed: +/- 3 deg (vacuum retard by 8 - 12 deg)
3000 rpm: 38 - 42 deg (vacuum advance 8 - 12 deg)
Are these values enough to set EDIS in the system? I do not have the centrifugal adjustment curve graph but I have the one of the 3.5 and above values are similar. The 3.5 graph stays at 0 deg up to 1000 rpm, then increases in a linear manner up to 28 deg at 2500 rpm and remains there as a plateau for all higher rpm. What I don't understand is that the graph does not correspond the the 3.5 values without vacuum: 10 deg at cranking speed (0 on the graph), 15 - 19 deg at 1500 rpm (19 deg on the graph) 30 deg at 3000 rpm (28 on the graph)...
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
Hi.
Sorry to go MB ranting but:
The W111 chassis , or any low pivot point swing rear axle MB, is not a suitable recipient of a potent engine like that. The 6,3 had of course lots of power , but as the saying goes in Germany " About half the indents in the railings along the Autobahn are made by 300 SEL 6,3s trying to brake from high speed."
I belive the factory shoehorned a 6,3 int a W113 , but that was along with a multilink rear suspension, so it can be done.
For advance curves I very much recommend factory figures. Please PM me your email adress and I will send the contact at the classic centre to you.
Best regards
Heribert
Sorry to go MB ranting but:
The W111 chassis , or any low pivot point swing rear axle MB, is not a suitable recipient of a potent engine like that. The 6,3 had of course lots of power , but as the saying goes in Germany " About half the indents in the railings along the Autobahn are made by 300 SEL 6,3s trying to brake from high speed."
I belive the factory shoehorned a 6,3 int a W113 , but that was along with a multilink rear suspension, so it can be done.
For advance curves I very much recommend factory figures. Please PM me your email adress and I will send the contact at the classic centre to you.
Best regards
Heribert
If it is not understood , it will not work!
Re: EDIS off by 6° in limp mode
First time I hear that! I had a nice 6.3 some time ago and I never felt insecure, though I had a scary experience once in a W112 Coupe when I had to lift the gas pedal in the middle of a curve..." About half the indents in the railings along the Autobahn are made by 300 SEL 6,3s trying to brake from high speed."
I'm sending you my email address via pm. Thanks!