Megasquirt for a Ferrari Testarossa

[brightsun]

I am looking for advice on a system(complete) to install into my engine.
Issue: Existing injectors long and deep into ports of phlenums

inj.jpg

you can see them hard plumbed above the air cleaners

TR Eng1.jpg

.
Present Condition: Presently 3" stainless exhaust system, 2 4" K&N air filters.
Winter add ons: Megasquirt system, then Twin Turbos limited to 7 lbs of boost. finally a 100hp port injected nitrous system.

Any experts on what components required for a 12 cylinder 7500rpm redline motor would require?

[Matt Cramer]

Looks like a CIS mechanical injection system you've got there. You may need some rather skinny injectors to use EFI - or possibly a pair of Delphi spider injectors off V6 Vortec motors, though these seem to have a bit of a short lifespan compared to conventional injectors.

The redline isn't going to be an issue; I've seen sport bike motors running MegaSquirt before. The most important question is going to be what you plan to do for ignition control. Is there a single distributor? Two distributors? No distributor? Let me know what it's running there or what you would like to run.

[S.Bretz]

I wonder if you can get somethig like this to work.



http://www.rceng.com/Peak-Hold-Injector ... P13C5.aspx






If all esle fails, you could always make a custom intake manifold

[Joe]

Interesting project. First of all go for it.

From the picture it looks to me like dual 6 cyl bosch CIS (K-jet) fuel distribution manifolds and twin cam driven distributors.
This will require some effort and fabrication (It's going to be well worth it). I just took a quick look at some msIII specs and I hope someone with some MSIII experience will chime in. As I see it (Opinion here) you would need to remove both plenums and have the injector boss modified for a newer Bosch or Seimans style injector(I recomend the Seimans). You will need to manufacture some fuel rails to feed your new injector replacemants. I hope the original style injectors feed into the plenumn and not the cylinder head.
Add a port for the map sensor to the plenumn. If possible mount a crank wheel (58x?) for trigger. Not sure how you would trigger off one cam driven distributor but if running fuel only I think it would be possible.

So, Megasquirt compatable CIS replacement. Don't know of any off hand. Your going to be doing some fabrication but with a twin turbo install it's just going to be a small part of a big project.

A twin turbo Megasquirt Ferrari. Cool project.

Joe

[brightsun]

CIS mechanical injection system is correct. I am going to be disassmebly in a few weeks once I am off shift. I work in the Oil Sands and am 5 hours from family and car, 10 days in and 4 days at home.
If the phlenums are to slim and I can not find suitable injectors I will get a cross-ram configuration machined for the induction system. Similar to photo

vemp_0909_16_z+performance_ls_engine+long_throttle_linkages.jpg

The information given already is great and I will get researching some of the leads on injectors from all. I will have to find dimensional drawings and installation bore sizes of all the choices of injectors, before buying them and not being able to use them.
As for distributors, I have one per side and they are the simplest to work on, pull them out, change seals and gaskets, rotors etc and bolt back up, no timing or realignment involved. Too simple, I will be putting in a fresh set of cam belts to take out any free play from stretched or worn belts.
The existing injectors feed through the phlenums and not into the heads

Injector profile.jpg

Injector profile 2.jpg

Facing the rear of my engine is the dual clutch set up, crank trigger would have to go on front of motor, behind seats, only issue is that the oil filter is mounter really close. I do not have a conventional oil pan, I have a dry sump with scavanging pumps. Where the oil pan is on most engines that is where my transmission is.

FYI is you do a youtube search for mouser57 you will see myself and the ZR Auto gang out of Calgary tracking our Ferrari's (Enzo, 430, 360, TR etc, , Lambo's, Massa MC12 and Porsches. I have uploaded a few videos from our antics.
The most important reason for the injector change is updating an old sytem which in finicky and I know I can gain more torque, hp & top end. Plus of course the Twin Turbos to stretch it;s legs out. A Koenig Twin Turbo out of Germany can attain 370kmh, for me getting to the 330-350 range after all mods would put a serious smile on my face.

Thanks for the info from all and I will be checking in every few days and giving updates on my findings once I start the teardown and explore the injector choices given to me.

[brightsun]

Here is the jungle around the Harmonic balancer, NOT showing in illustration is the alternator and airconditioning lines, throttle cables, shifter linkages, firewall etc. You get the idea

Harmonic.jpg

[Joe]

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/po ... ultecmpfi/

Some of the delphi shorties might be usable when space is an issue.


If no timing is involved for distributor setup is the ignition triggered from a crank wheel??

Mainly wondering if you already have a good crank trigger that might be usable.

Joe-

[brightsun]

In my manual I found out that it has inductive pick ups off of the flywheel. Also I found injector made for the Testarossa engine but in the newer 512 models with an MPI system in them but pricey. http://www.shopinjectors.com/injectors/ ... mp5112.htm
Reman ones are half the price http://www.fuelinjectorwhse.com/carinje ... aa=1103960. The fuel injector warehouse has a good variety and I will check out the parts interchange with Mercedes who uses the same CIS injector series.

[flyguyeddy]

can i ask whats wrong with the cis injection? i personally think it looks cool, and was going to put it on my old school honda civic, until idecided that i might as well use the injectors that are already on my engine...(a20)

[Hey_Allen]

can i ask whats wrong with the cis injection? i personally think it looks cool, and was going to put it on my old school honda civic, until idecided that i might as well use the injectors that are already on my engine...(a20)

For those of us who's cars are afflicted by CIS, it's usually a vacuum issue that prompts the change to something else.

They are extremely sensitive to vacuum leaks, and it's a bit of a lost art to tune the factory systems, much less to try to pull any additional performance out of a CIS equipped engine.

Regarding the origional question, depending on the engine, you might get lucky and find that once you pull the injector, you find that there is an adapter in the head/intake that fills a space that fits another design injector once it's removed.
Mercedes played with an early electronic injection system before going with CIS through the 80's. The heads were all machined to take a Bosch design1 injector, but had plastic adapters installed to take the CIS nozzles as shown in the initial post. Once they are removed, a number of newer injectors drop right in, such as the common as dirt injectors that Ford Mustangs ship with.

[fury fan]

I saw a guy on a Volvo forum that was selling custom CIS to Bosch-type injector adapters. I tried finding it but no luck - try Turbobricks.com and see if you have better luck than me.

They were pretty reasonably priced but those guys only need 4, you'd need 12.

[Heribert]

flyguyeddy asked
"can i ask whats wrong with the cis injection?"
I would say just about everything. Especially so if you are hit by the KE type, which has an electronic loop that has its own little electro-hydraulic actuator built onto the fuel distributor which is controlled by a lambda ctrl circuit.
The system has an inherent shortcoming. The lower the engine load, and especially at low rpms at that, the engine needs very well atomized fuel in orde to run predictably and well. And exactly in this region the differential pressure over the spray nozzle ( aka the injector) is so low that even a superwell manufactured nozzle struggles to atomize the fuel. So , in order to compensate for this , you have to set it a bit rich to compensate for the large cycle to cycle variations.

So, my take on K Jetronic and KE Jetronic is to simply dump it.

On a number of rebuilds I have done to MB 102 and 103 engines , the injectors have fit straight into the K/KE nozzle hoöes in the manifold ans sealed perfectly with the dia 13,5 mm Oring.

Best regards

Heribert

[andy2175m4]

can i ask whats wrong with the cis injection? i personally think it looks cool, and was going to put it on my old school honda civic, until idecided that i might as well use the injectors that are already on my engine...(a20)

For those of us who's cars are afflicted by CIS, it's usually a vacuum issue that prompts the change to something else.

They are extremely sensitive to vacuum leaks, and it's a bit of a lost art to tune the factory systems, much less to try to pull any additional performance out of a CIS equipped engine.

Regarding the origional question, depending on the engine, you might get lucky and find that once you pull the injector, you find that there is an adapter in the head/intake that fills a space that fits another design injector once it's removed.
Mercedes played with an early electronic injection system before going with CIS through the 80's. The heads were all machined to take a Bosch design1 injector, but had plastic adapters installed to take the CIS nozzles as shown in the initial post. Once they are removed, a number of newer injectors drop right in, such as the common as dirt injectors that Ford Mustangs ship with.

Regarding replacing CIS with Megasquirt, I am working on my Ferrari 308 right now, and the CIS is gone for good, I used 8 regular injectors from a Lincoln Town Car, machined them down as skinny as possible, and stuck them into the mainfold, seems to work good enough. I am definitely having some tuning issues, but all in all its coming along.

I first put in a Holley Commander 950 with these same 8 injectors, which worked fine at first, but then the Holley ECU suffered some sort of hardware failure, and would not start but once a week. The megasquirt was a good replacement for the Holley. Best $150 I ever spent, it is not perfect but it's getting better.

As far as getting the megasquirt to work on a Testarossa, that's got to be a noble effort. how's it goning ?

I don't need to tell you getting rid of CIS is the right move. I could not get the CIS to do anyting, and don't want to spend $2000 to have someone else "rebuild" and then still wonder why it won't run. It's too outdated, parts too hard to get.

[Luis]

Serious project here.

You have to remove the entire mecanic injection and fabricate or modificate the stock runners, you can search 6L engines to get the fuel items (injectors and rail)for each head, people whith mercedes 2.3 get the injectors and rail from a Saab.

Alfa romeo have a plate in their v6 to acomodate the injectors to the head and then the runners are attached, you can fabricate one an then attach the stock runners on it.

About ignition, a six cilinder ignition output configuration in wasted spark mode, i think it´s the best way.