ignition problems on supercharged 22re

[notimaginative]

Vehicle is a 1982 celica.
motor is a supercharged 22re fully built for boost, H-beam rods, wisco pistons, forged crank and so on.
megasquirt board version 3 with ms2 chip with 2.905 code.
Msd 6al ignition with stock distributor. All advance has been locked out .
The car has been running for three years prior to changes.
Msq. file currently in controller is attached

I am having ignition trouble. I updated my running version 2 board to ms2 and added the ignition control and am dealing with hard kicking back while trying to start it. It will crank 4 to 8 seconds and kick back hard enough to stop the motor and even roll it backwards against the starter. I have blown the head gasket trying to fix it. I have spent 3 months tying different things. I also went as far as changing the version 2 board out for the version 3 and removing any other unnecessary ignition components. I set everything to 0 degs for testing and made the reluctor adjustable to rotor timing. I've checked timing many different ways including a rod down the cylinder to verify timing marks are accurate to piston movement.
It did started a couple of times and ran OK but would not restart. One time it did start, I put the timing light on it and it was jumping 20 degs advance every 2-3 seconds at idle.

I pulled the distributor and used a drill to give me a constant rpm and adjusted the potentiometers on the board as best as I could.

I replaced cap, rotor, spark plugs, reluctor wheel pickup, shielded wires to and from reluctor pickup and shielded output wire to the MSD white wire.

I pulled the spark plugs disconnected the fuel pump and cranked the motor over and was getting about 15 degs advance on cylinder one with the timing light.

Any suggestions???
thanks

[Matt Cramer]

You'll need to get your timing correct. Try setting spark output to going high / inverted, and adjust the trigger offset as needed.

[notimaginative]

I've checked timing many ways. I had it set more than once. I used the trigger offset first and it worked. After the problem got worse, I made the sensor adjustable and since the sensor was already on a bearing so it could rotate around the reluctor wheel for stock advance, all I had to do was find a way to lock it down anywhere I wanted it. Now I don't need to use the trigger offset exempt for minor adjustments.

I know that by my name it has newbie magasquirt, but that's far from true. I have had this version 2 board since I built it back when you could mail a check to bowling and grippo directly and they sent you the board almost 10 years ago. The supercharger manifold, pulleys,and fuel rail I built my self

here is a video of the car running on the version 2 board. this is one of the times I had it running before it blew the head gasket because of it kicking back so hard. the timing was set right. even when I got it started here it was kicking back while cranking it, but it did start. This video, the car was running the old tune with no adjustments so it wasn't running like it should.

http://s1057.photobucket.com/albums/t39 ... ure037.mp4

[notimaginative]

I'm still having issues with my car. I really don't know what else to check. Anyone have any thoughts, theory or suggestions??? My last post I was just trying to say I'm not waste anyone time without checking the basics first. If you have ANY feedback, I'm listening.

I had someone suggest that If the head gasket is blown, that I might be getting cross firing because of a complete gasket failure between cylinders. The only problem with this theory is when I by passed the MS board and went right to the MSD6al box, used the tach out on the MSD for a signal to MS, it didn't kick back at all. This is why I think it's a problem with my settings in my msq. file. Has anyone seen anything out of place in the file????

This is killing me. with all I've done with this car, I can't figure it out on my own. Please help before I go crazy.

[Matt Cramer]

Is there any chance it's a rotor phasing issue, where the tip of the distributor rotor is too near an adjacent cylinder's wire and sparking the wrong cylinder?

[notimaginative]

I thought about that so I cut a a distributor cap to see.

so at zero on the crank,
the rotor is pointing at cylinder one and reluctor wheel is pointing at the sensor pickup. as a side note, if I set the motor at 12deg advance the rotor would be closer to center. I had it set that way so I wouldn't run out of rotor tip when advancing timing.
the cam is on where I set it a year ago,
and I made sure the spark plug wires are not touching any other wire, frame , boot or even the plug wire holders on the head.

Also out of desperation, I set everything to do with the ignition to zero including the ignition map, put the rotor dead center of cylinder one, used my adjustable reluctor wheel to time the motor and was still kicking back.

[355vette]

What are you using for an ignition module. If HEI 7 or 8 I put a switch on the control wire so I start on my initial timing and then switch over to MS timing. For rotor phasing I like to have the rotor in the cetner of the #1 post when the engine is midway on the advance curve. You have a way to adjust the reluctor so setting initial should be easy. My timing goes from 16 to 50 so I set my phasing with the static at 33 BTDC. These are only something to think about. Good luck!

[notimaginative]

What are you using for an ignition module. If HEI 7 or 8 I put a switch on the control wire so I start on my initial timing and then switch over to MS timing. For rotor phasing I like to have the rotor in the cetner of the #1 post when the engine is midway on the advance curve. You have a way to adjust the reluctor so setting initial should be easy. My timing goes from 16 to 50 so I set my phasing with the static at 33 BTDC. These are only something to think about. Good luck!

I'm using the Toyota sensor and reluctor wheel.I'm using a V3 board for every thing else.

I'll look into the switch idea more, but I'm not sure I can if the board is taking care of it all.

thanks guys for the help. I still need ideas though.

[355vette]

I am guessing then you would need some sort of start retard if your idle advance is much over 16. I imagine toyota had something in their ecu. Will the motor run with the toyota module set to some static advance and the S5 on relay or pin 36 disconnected? If so the start switch idea should work.

[notimaginative]

oh I get the switching Idea...I could do that. Is there any other way though? I already don't like all the spaghetti I've got strung through the cab and engine compartment of the car and really I don't want a "start up sequence" to the car that if I forget, could cause a head gasket failure. I guess I could use a timed switch of some kind. Could megasquirt send a "running" signal to a time delay switch???

If there's no other way.....I'll do it.

[355vette]

Depending on how your fuel pump is set up you could run that ignition wire through a relay controlled by the fuel pump relay and then it wouldn't switch to MS ignition control until the fuel pump came on which should be after the cranking is over. You could probably also put a timer on the fuel pump relay which would give you more control by your choice of timer.

[trakkies]

Depending on how your fuel pump is set up you could run that ignition wire through a relay controlled by the fuel pump relay and then it wouldn't switch to MS ignition control until the fuel pump came on which should be after the cranking is over. You could probably also put a timer on the fuel pump relay which would give you more control by your choice of timer.

Thought the pump ran as soon as it sees a tach signal?

[abecedarian]

What about using a relay off the small starter wire or off the ignition switch?
When cranking, the relay is powering one circuit, then when the key is released, power to the relay is cut causing it to close the other circuit.
You would probably want to redirect the ignition circuit signals and not the main power to MS.

[abecedarian]

I am by no means an expert on MegaSquirt, however I have quite a bit of experience on the 22re's, so hear me out.

You have the distributor set so the rotor's trailing edge is past the tower. I know you're trying to set it up so the rotor lines up better with the tower terminal when you have advance dialed in there, either by mechanically adjusting the dizzy or via the tune, but the stock 22re ignition, the ones without vacuum or mechanical advance/retard distributors, can swing the ignition timing up to nearly 40 advance, and that's starting with the rotor almost dead nuts on the tower. I don't think you're going to be pushing 40 deg at all, maybe barely even 30-35 deg max at light throttle. So, when lining up the rotor with the tower to anticipate your advance needs, you should have the rotor position altered only as much as necessary. And 40 degrees on the crank is only 20 degrees on the distributor since the dizzy runs 1/2 the speed of the crank.

The MSD can push the spark to jump fairly large distances and I think that's what's happening to you- the leading edge of the rotor tip is close enough to the next cylinder for one of those multiple sparks to hit the next tower on the distributor cap. Sparks flying around in the dizzy will ionize the air trapped in there and the ionized air will make it easier for the spark to jump around to places it shouldn't go. Sparking to the next cylinder in the sequence means you're lighting that plug up while the intake valve on that cylinder is still open and then, what you said "kick back" is what will happen.

I also think you have too many variables, mechanically speaking, associated with the ignition system. Were it me, I would replace the distributor with one from a later 22re which doesn't have any vacuum or mechanical advance plates or weights in it and use the stock pick-up from the later distributor as is- this is known to work since DIYAutoTune sells a PNP kit for the later 22re's. I would also turn the distributor clockwise a bit so the rotor is closer to the #1 tower terminal and set your pick-up so it aligns with the tooth on the trigger to get the leading edge as far away from the next terminal as possible to prevent arcing. Remember that 20 degrees at the distributor is 40 degrees at the crank so even though it doesn't look like it's wide enough, the stock rotor is very much wide enough. So you need to make sure the leading edge of the rotor is as far away as possible from the next cylinder tower otherwise arcing can occur between the rotor and terminals.

I just talked a circle, didn't I?

FWIW, stock initial/cranking advance on the later 22re's- 86+ (including the turbo), is 5 BTDC. That is controlled by the igniter module while cranking. After the engine starts and you release the ignition key to the run position, the igniter hands over ignition control to the ECU (even though the igniter is still triggering the coil) and the ECU does what it wants to with the timing. You may want to consider that in your MS programming.

I might also suggest you search at sites like Yotatech.com, Pirate4x4.com and 4x4wire.com for information about megasquirt and the 22re. You may get some information from those sites which may help you: even though those are oriented towards the trucks, a 22re is a 22re whether on a celica or truck. If you hit yotatech, my username is the same there as here.

Good luck.

[notimaginative]

Thanks for all the ideas. I think the switching between ignition outputs will work. I will have to run the ms board and the Toyota ignition off the one reluctor wheel. anyone had problems doing that?
so I had an idea to avoid a switch that I could forget to throw and possibly blow the head gasket.
This is the 8 pin relay I got to do this trick of mine.



Here is the wiring schematic I drew up.



So my idea is when the fuel pump is on there is 12v available to the relay. After the car is started, I push the button that throws the relay switching the ignition to the ms control and also self powering to continue holding the relay until power is cut to the fuel pump. Once power is cut, the relay returns to the toyota ignition input.Thus, no switch to forget upon starting the car.

One posible problem is the ignition input wire in side the relay passes right by the coil and I'm wondering if it will cause iterference of any kind. What do you guys think?????