New to MS Tuning

[william]

I am new to MS and having a bit of a problem. At this point I am in limbo. I do not want to go back to using my Carb.
The engine is a 3.4 (207 ci)GM V6 with DIS, the MS unit is a v3.57 with all of the updates, so I was told. Also using the relay board fro DIYAutoTune., Great guys.
The engine has a supercharger 6-7 psi with the blowthorugh carb and hei ignition.
Everything was removed and installed the FI from a 94 Camaro 3.4 as mention using the DIS. Injectors are 24 lb. Tis is what the formula suggest to use with the supercharger.

Problem:
Engine wants to start, but is a no go. I have burn two starters due to back fire (cheap chinise hi torque starters) will be installing a regualr GM.
Plugs are wet, if changed to lean, does not tried to start.

Could it be possible to change the set-up to a 17 lb injector and then richen the mixture later? Is thera a initial se-up that I could copy and at least get the engine started?
I have read the very dry manual and only came up with minimum information that I can unserstand. This is not for someone with 0 experience.
Is there a manual that can take you from step one through step 100 without explanation on hoe to build one or modified the ECU.

I think there is, but I can not find it.
Any help on setting up this unit would be greatly appreciated. I have spend to much time just trying to get it started.

I have been told that the problem is the DIS and I should install a EDIS I think it is a initial set-up, but.....I have no idea. I just want to keep up with the new technology.
HELP !!!!!

[Bender142]

Can you pull a plug/coil from a cylinder, ground the plug, and observe a spark when cranking the engine? You may also want to pull all the plugs out until you can veirify #1 cylinder is getting spark at the right time (this will save your starter).

If you have no spark, double check you ignition config settings. If you have weak spark (dim) try swapping coils and verify the wiring. If you do have good spark, check the timing.

I share your frustration with the manual but they do have to cover a very wide range of applications. Having a good theory based understaning of how FI and ignition works should help us all as we apply that knowledge to our specific applications

Also, post often before you get frustrated (I learned that the hard way)

Cheers

[william]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
I have done the following checks, I have checked the DIS module and coils in accordance ot the gm manual both are in the specs. Coils are actually in real good condition. I have checked the spark with a sparkplug spark tester, spark is nice and blue and fires several times, it appears as it fires all of the time.

I am told and told that I should install EDIS and that will fire the engine and then just tune. Is it that simple?
Has anyone actually succesful at using the DIS? Is EDIS better than the GM DIS? If so has anyone has a schematic on how to connect the EDIS to the DYIautotune relay box? The only thing I could find is one that uses the term PIN which is the cable to the ecu. I have no idea to where the wires go in the relay box. This is not a put down please. I just need a simple schematic to follow.

Any other ideas are really appreciated. Going back to work on the car tomorrow. took today off. Maybe it fix itself?

Thanks

[trakkies]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
I have done the following checks, I have checked the DIS module and coils in accordance ot the gm manual both are in the specs. Coils are actually in real good condition. I have checked the spark with a sparkplug spark tester, spark is nice and blue and fires several times, it appears as it fires all of the time.

If you're getting kickback when attempting to start, you need to check the spark is occurring in the correct place. As it sounds like it's not. So since many modern engines don't have the sort of timing marks a dizzy one has, you'll have to improvise. I printed up a strip which glued round the crank pulley damper. You'll need some basic maths to work that one out or see what can be bought. Then use a strobe timing light to see exactly where it's sparking.

I am told and told that I should install EDIS and that will fire the engine and then just tune. Is it that simple?

Yes. EDIS when correctly installed (plenty of info on how to out there) will produced a spark at 10 degrees BTDC with no connection to the MS - in limp home mode.
But of course needs connecting to the MS for that to deliver fuel.

Has anyone actually succesful at using the DIS? Is EDIS better than the GM DIS? If so has anyone has a schematic on how to connect the EDIS to the DYIautotune relay box? The only thing I could find is one that uses the term PIN which is the cable to the ecu. I have no idea to where the wires go in the relay box. This is not a put down please. I just need a simple schematic to follow.

Any other ideas are really appreciated. Going back to work on the car tomorrow. took today off. Maybe it fix itself?

Thanks

I don't use the MS relay box, but the EDIS system only needs a power feed and local ground. The power usually from the main relay.
Then two connections to the MS - PIP and SAW. But the MS must be properly configured for any ignition system which may involve altering internal links as well as software.

But have you read the part about DIS in the MegaManual and checked everything is correct? A quick glance shows it no more difficult to configure in MS than EDIS.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm

[Bender142]

Hello William,

Trakkies has provided you with some good info; keep us posted on your progress. I've been 'stuck' a few times myself (okay, alot of times ). Some of the people on this forum have been extremely helpful to me. I have not installed a MS on a DIS (or EDIS) application so I can only be of little use to you. That said, keep the information flowing and you will get your issue sorted out. I've learned a lot along the way (wheather I want to or not).

Cheers

[william]

Will do the checks/test mention by trakkies and see where it will take me. I am willing to try anything at this point.
DIS also advances 10 degrees on limp mode same as EDIS. The only difference that I see is 36 teth minus one for EDIS and 7 for DIS 6 evenly space.
What is scary is the manual, it reads"The following comes from a third party bla bla.............Use at your own risk" Not very assuring.

I just hate to let this thing beat me. I do not want to add another reluctor ring, the crank has one build in and it should work.
The problem is clear information for the one who do not like to tinker with this stuff, just follow an Schematic, a trouble shoot section etc.
I truly think the problem is MS-initial set up, I need a good starting point. It appears that some of values are not correct when MS figures the fuel needed after the ci is enter, # of cylinders and injector lb. When I do that, the plugs are really wet.
I think I ma flooding thus firering backwards due to fuel is in the intake valves and not in the manifold like a wet system such as a carb.

I just wish there some available starting maps for the same engine.
One thing that I am going to try is to lie to the MS and instead of entering 24 lb injector I will tell the MS that is a 17 lb injector.

Reason why I went with MS was due to the cost Vs a Fast system or Electromotive system.....well over $2400 I know that MS will work it just takes LOTS!!!! of initial work, not as easy as some think, specially for me. I will beat this think.

Please keep ideas and comments coming, THANK YOU !!!!! really appreciated.

[trakkies]

I built my MS from a kit, so was is up to me to configure it for my needs. This is what it was initially designed for, IIRC.

If I'd bought it ready made and configured for DIS, I'd expect it to work out of the box. Although likely need fine tuning.

Did you buy all the wiring looms needed too - or make or modify them? This is the bit that frequently goes wrong, IMHO.

Since MS offer the option of using DIS I'd stick with it. EDIS may have some advantages if converting from a dizzy, but none I can see over starting off with DIS.

All IMHO.

[william]

I had posted "New to MS" for some reason I can not find my post.

[william]

Thank you very much for moving my post in the correct section.
I think I found the problems.
a. The problem I have is the following. As the key is turn on and off several times to enter parameters in the ECU, the injectors shoot fuel in the cylinders, do this sevferal times and you have a flooded engine, really bad.
b. Tested the ignition in the following manner. Put tape over the trigger on the timing light to check the spark. Spark occur during several revolutions and it went away. YES engine ran until the ignition went south.

Here is the weird thing and I hope some of you can help. If I ground the one of the sparkplugs.....removing the sparkplug wire and connecting to a test plug. I get a real good spark every crank------------put the sparkplug wire back and the spark goes away. So, I know that if I fix this problem it will run and i can start tuning.

Another mistake is I did not set the missing tooth on 0 which is a most with the GM DIS
Has anyone experience this problem??

A little note, Matt Cramer has been a ton of help. Jerry and Matts new book is fantastic, I have learn lots from it.
A most to have.

[trakkies]

The priming pulse can indeed cause problems when trying to check timing etc on a non running engine. Removing the pump relay is a good way round this.

I'd say most will find the instructions in the MegaManual daunting at first look. I print out the relative bit, and tick off each instruction as I've actioned it. A must when building one. ;-)

Some timing lights get upset by wasted spark. A basic one with no settings for advance, rpm etc may be better.

What plug leads and plugs are you using? I've just been informed of the basic spec for these with EDIS - a minimum of 5000 ohms resistance in the leads and or plug resistor.

Matt Cramer is God.

[Matt Cramer]

No, I'm just a member of the priesthood of the believers...

You don't set up a wheel decoder with this as the ECU never "sees" the crank trigger wheel pattern; hence, the wheel decoder is set to zero to turn it off. At this point, I think you've got a problem with your spark plugs (too much gap, or internal breakage, maybe?).

[wm g]

Good points!!!
I have a first class timing light and it does work very nicely with the new tech stuff, bought just for that reason.
The sparkplugs? Yes since the others got flooded and I drop two in the floor and even if do not see the cracks, they can fail later, so I install a new set last night, the same results.
Sparkplug wires are 500 ohm resistance 8.5 mm made for GM cars with DIS.

I was doing some reading early this morning on the web. I found a sentence that talk about testing the module with a halogen head light. The halogen head light can draw sufficient amps to trigger the module.
I tested the module in accordance to the manufacturers trouble shoot guide and it checks ok, coils are ok.

Long shot, could this be cause by the MS I really do not think so but anything is possible.
The good news is that I have learn lots and the guys at and the guys at DIYAutoTune have been so…supportive, hard for them to trouble shoot via e-mails, but they really try.

[wm g]

This is the link where it talks about checking the module with a halogen head light. NO I have not try it.

http://www.hyundaiaftermarket.org/tech/DIS.pdf

[Matt Cramer]

Wasted spark coils rely on the spark plugs as both their + and their - terminals on the secondary side. You might want to try a different set of coils - I've seen coils fail like that before.

[wm g]

Thanks, Matt, that will be my last attemp to the DIS. I will replace the coils and module.
Yesturday I tried the following; Changed dwell (both #'s the same) to different settings. It tried to start best at different sttings such as 8 initial and 25 dwell.
Both #'s should be the same I was told. Disconnected the limp home relay to disable, lost of all of the spark for a while, then nothing.

I truly beleive that the DIS is not (in my case ) the way to go. DIS was design to run with a crank position sensor and a cam position sensor, thus making the EDIS simpler. I am going to machine a whell with 36-1 and weld to the rear of the pulley. Very tight space.

I hope Matt is correct and yes it is a big possibilty that the coils, even they check in accordance to the test on the GM book, could be bad. Same with the module.

The plan is; if EDIS does work, I will then look into the stock computer and add the board or something to tune on the fly. If not possible, back to carb, it ran before.

Will let you know.

[wm g]

Update !!!
Changed coils and module. The replacement coils and module were taken to a GM shop and checked OK!
Install them in the car------same thing. If I gournd the sparkplug wire to a spark test plug, I get good spark, if sparkplug wire is put back in the plug, no spark NADA "0" Also with limp home mode disconnected I get the same results. Another wierd thing that is happening, my lap top stops commnicating with the ECU aftger 10 or so minutes, tried another lap top and the same. Ihave to wait about 30 minutes before it will communicate with the ECU again.

Borrow a lap top dwon oaded the studio etc. etc. and the same thing. NO idea what is next.

Question; will the EDIS work in my case? broad question but, I have do to lots of work to install the EDIS, machine a ring due to space. Engine damer is very close to rack & pinion, it has to go behind the crank pulley. No I can not install one between the pulley and the damper, that will move everything forward, water pump, alt, supercharger bracket difficult to move forward. It has to be made to fit the pulley and weld.

Any ideas on the DIS ???? Anyone? Wiring diagram for the EDIS anyone? I have seen the manual.

[wm g]

I am the one who posted "New to MS"
If you read my posts you will know that I have been having problems with DIS firing the engine. I gave up the battle, but I want to give it another try before I install EDIS.
Question; How do I check the output of the MS for the DIS ignition ? I am begining to suspect that I may not have an output from the MS to the DIS.
Anything is possible.

[wm g]

Is anyone out there??? Hello!!!

[trakkies]

I am the one who posted "New to MS"
If you read my posts you will know that I have been having problems with DIS firing the engine. I gave up the battle, but I want to give it another try before I install EDIS.
Question; How do I check the output of the MS for the DIS ignition ? I am begining to suspect that I may not have an output from the MS to the DIS.
Anything is possible.

I'd say you first need to get DIS working in limp home mode. IIRC, it should produce a spark which no connections to MS at all. The same would apply to EDIS.

Are you sure the polarity to the VR sensor is correct? Hvae you checked the simple things - like is it getting the correct 12 volts when cranking? Measured with everything in circuit, so under load. Unplugging a connector and probing for 12 volts with a DVM is not a suitable test.

[trakkies]

[snip]Wiring diagram for the EDIS anyone? I have seen the manual.

What's the problem with the EDIS wiring diagram in the MegaManual?